FBI hiring Americans to spy on Americans

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I remember during the Cold War the horror stories we would hear about the Communists who spy on each other for the state. Honey, I’m home…

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9 Responses to “FBI hiring Americans to spy on Americans”

  1. mad dog Says:

    The cause behind people spying on each other is statism, or too much government power. What happens is that a clustered elite use the iron boot of the state for its own goals, whether it be the Bolsheviks or the Neo-Conservatives. Over time, they become paranoid, increasingly fearing rebellion/revolution. They knew that if they would butcher people wholesale, that that would also cause a revolution. So instead, they settle for hunting down interlopers quietly, to preserve the illusion of peace and order.

  2. briankoontz Says:

    That’s not why they do it quietly: as any viewer of a horror film knows, it’s the silence that’s terrifying: one of the primary purposes of the state is to induce terror. That’s why especially brutal regimes favor torture, while less brutal ones favor coercion, intimidation, and manipulation.

    States are learning that there is an artistry in creating death. Dropping a bomb and blowing up a bunch of people is ok when time is short and for foreigners, but it’s not very effective in creating terror and thus wholly insufficient for use on the domestic population, who by their increased proximity and degree of threat must be made to be more terrified than any foreign people. So now we have laws that allow the government to seize any US citizen, anywhere, and detain him without rights or trial or being charged with a crime, and tortured. States are learning…

    Iraqis are fighting against the American government while Americans wring their hands and talk about the police state and fascism. Who is more terrified?

    I don’t think there has been a government in the history of Western culture at least that hasn’t feared it’s loss of power. Since the Neocons are especially abusive, they are especially worried. And for good reason.

    Opposites raise each other to power. So as the police state gets closer in America, the possibility of democratic revolution rises with it. If a modern government is installed, both the chances of a police state and of a democratic revolution fall, thus dashing the hopes of both parties.

    That’s what people still have not understood. People who want democracy in America *need* the threat of the police state to motivate that democratic movement. People who support the American status quo of dominance by the capitalist elite class support neither the police state nor democracy.

    That’s why the left is so active in today’s America. It’s not only their fear of fascism, but their excitement about the democratic possibilities that possibility of fascism brings with it.

    Why can’t Americans understand this? Or is the problem that they can’t accept it?

  3. mad dog Says:

    “Opposites raise each other to power. So as the police state gets closer in America, the possibility of democratic revolution rises with it.”

    There are other forms of opposition besides those who favor direct democracy. There are also those that favor the return of a small, constitutional government, devoted to civil liberties. Another group (or shall I say ‘set of groups’?) that comes to mind are the anarchists. They want no government and no coercion of any kind whatsoever (well, some of them; there are various kinds of anarchists, but each kind that I have seen are always against the current government).

    “If a modern government is installed, both the chances of a police state and of a democratic revolution fall, thus dashing the hopes of both parties.”

    I am not quite following you. What do you mean by ‘modern government’?

    “but their excitement about the democratic possibilities that possibility of fascism brings with it”

    ?!?!? Are you actually saying that the left enjoys fascism and its use?

  4. briankoontz Says:

    “I am not quite following you. What do you mean by ‘modern government’?”

    I mistyped/misspoke. I meant to say “moderate”, not modern.

    “?!?!? Are you actually saying that the left enjoys fascism and its use?”

    It enjoys the threat of fascism in order to provide impetus for democracy. There’s no way democracy can occur in America any time in the near future without that threat.

    We are seeing a flourishing of democratic energy in America precisely because of the fear of fascism and a police state. Political engagement was at an all-time low in America prior to the Neocon insanity within the Bush II administration. It was the Neocons, not the straightforward left, that brought democracy to the table in America.

    That’s why I not only fear the continuation of the Neocons after Bush II leaves office, I fear more *not* having the Neocons in office… I fear that democracy will not happen without them.

    Chris Hedges says something like “Justice has two beautiful daughters: Anger at the way things are and Courage to see that the way things are no longer continues.” In order for those daughters to be born there has to be injustice. The Neocons know their role.

    According to me the Neocons have been on the left all along. They might pull off the greatest democratic coup in the history of the world.

    This happens time and again in American history: every democratic reform is a response to some outrageous action by the right. Even the many reforms of the 1960s never would have happened without the Vietnam debacle. The Neocons are simply the first political force to be aware of this and use it to manipulate reality to their liking (assuming they are successful). It’s the most dangerous ploy I’ve ever seen. Extremely high risk, extremely high return.

    In this sense this whole thing is very depressing. It’s disgusting to me that Americans, even those on the left, cannot achieve democracy without this sort of thing. It’s disgusting that the left wins some small victory, like environmental regulation, and then is satisfied. Why were they ever satisfied?

    Well, the chickens are indeed coming home to roost. The left failed in America for centuries, and now a new method of revolution is being enacted as we speak.

    The true enemy of both the lovers of democratic revolution and the Neocons are the moderates – the pursuers of the American Republic. The pursuers of liberal capitalism, of rule by a corporate elite class. Until this is recognized the people being duped here are the corporations themselves, the capitalists, the moderates. Here’s hoping they stay duped.

    Remember how Rocky responds to being beaten up: he explodes to victory. Rocky was born with the Neocons, and will die with them.

    In the end people will understand that in a war both sides are promoted: it’s the people not directly involved who are reduced in status and power. The two sides of this war are the democrats and the neocons, and they both want the same thing. For the first time in the last two centuries of American history, the corporate elite is standing on the sidelines of American culture.

    The Neocons may be a phantom enemy, but they have very real and very dangerous allies, especially the corporate right that has always wanted fascism. Only their continued control over their allies allows for democratic hope in America.

  5. mad dog Says:

    “It enjoys the threat of fascism in order to provide impetus for democracy. There’s no way democracy can occur in America any time in the near future without that threat.

    We are seeing a flourishing of democratic energy in America precisely because of the fear of fascism and a police state. Political engagement was at an all-time low in America prior to the Neocon insanity within the Bush II administration. It was the Neocons, not the straightforward left, that brought democracy to the table in America.”

    Just out of curiosity, Brian. How smart do you think that the average American is?

    “That’s why I not only fear the continuation of the Neocons after Bush II leaves office, I fear more *not* having the Neocons in office… I fear that democracy will not happen without them.”

    I only fear that they don’t die in a fire.

    “The true enemy of both the lovers of democratic revolution and the Neocons are the moderates – the pursuers of the American Republic. The pursuers of liberal capitalism, of rule by a corporate elite class. Until this is recognized the people being duped here are the corporations themselves, the capitalists, the moderates.”

    You seem like one of those folks who confuse Lazziez-Faire capitalism for corporatism. Lazziez-Faire, as you might already know, is government non-intervention into the economy, except perhaps as referee. Corporatism is the government passing favors to certain businesses, but not to others. It often includes shielding that business from competition.

    “Here’s hoping they stay duped.”

    WTF?

    Now you are not making any sense.

  6. briankoontz Says:

    “Just out of curiosity, Brian. How smart do you think that the average American is?”

    Very smart.

    “You seem like one of those folks who confuse Lazziez-Faire capitalism for corporatism. Lazziez-Faire, as you might already know, is government non-intervention into the economy, except perhaps as referee. Corporatism is the government passing favors to certain businesses, but not to others. It often includes shielding that business from competition.”

    Laissez-faire is nonsense – it will never happen. It’s a propaganda ploy used by proponents of the corporate welfare state to dismantle the populist welfare state.

    “Now you are not making any sense.”

    What’s lacking in sense? The Neocons are extremists that serve the right in the short-term and the left in the long-term. The moderates they are serving in *no* term. It’s the moderates who most vilify and detest the Neocons. Both the Neocons and the straightforward leftists want the moderates to be duped long enough to allow democracy to take hold in America.

    Liberal capitalists are the moderates, the political center in America. Not the *populist* center, the power center.

  7. mad dog Says:

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    Don’t be so sure:

    Americans have an average IQ of 98 to 100:

    http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/id1048.html
    http://www.geocities.com/rnseitz/Definition_of_IQ.html
    http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/wealth_of_nations.htm

    Also check out:
    http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_02/stott042902.html
    http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/why_are_americans_so_stupid/
    http://wonkette.com/politics/newsweek/americans-are-stupid-and-newsweek-intends-to-keep-it-that-way-207197.php

    You also have to factor in the people who keep waving those flags, the bible thumpers, the jerks who keep voting for people like Bush, the people who keep voting for some guy just because he is a Fundamentalist or Southern Baptist, the number of Abortion Rights opponents, the number of those opposed to equal rights for gay people, the considerable difficulty in getting rid of segregation in this country, as well as the number of folks who vote for politicians simply because they bring home “bacon” AKA, pork barrel spending to their district.

    “Laissez-faire is nonsense – it will never happen. It’s a propaganda ploy used by proponents of the corporate welfare state to dismantle the populist welfare state.”

    Never happen? It already did happen. Read up on 19th century America, modern day Hong Kong, Signapore, Houston, Texas, the State of New Hampshire and Anaheim, California.

    I admit that such governments are few and far in between, but that is a huge difference from “NEVER”. If you read up on Chomsky, you will notice him pointing out various other examples of nations/states/groups that also had little to no coercion.

    “Both the Neocons and the straightforward leftists want the moderates to be duped long enough to allow democracy to take hold in America.”

    Anyone who tries to deceive me or other people is most certainly NOT my friend. Besides, I thought you had said before that the average american was “very smart”. If they are so smart, how come they are ‘duped’?

    “Liberal capitalists are the moderates, the political center in America. Not the *populist* center, the power center.”

    In my book, that is a good thing. I LIKE the fact that the large center of America feels like I should live my life the way I see fit, as well as not have to pay ridiculous amounts of money in taxes. ‘Live and Let Live’ is perhaps my favorite philosophy.

    I am so sick and tired about hearing the schemes of the extreme left and extreme right, how they want to tell us how to live our lives, how they want to legislate their versions of morality, how they want to use government for their own nefarious purposes, etc.

  8. briankoontz Says:

    “You also have to factor in the people who keep waving those flags, the bible thumpers, the jerks who keep voting for people like Bush, the people who keep voting for some guy just because he is a Fundamentalist or Southern Baptist, the number of Abortion Rights opponents, the number of those opposed to equal rights for gay people, the considerable difficulty in getting rid of segregation in this country, as well as the number of folks who vote for politicians simply because they bring home “bacon” AKA, pork barrel spending to their district.”

    That has little or nothing to do with intelligence. It’s debatable whether or not it’s smart to wave a flag, and it likely depends on many factors which differ from case to case.

    What you’re talking about is more along the lines of values, morals, and ideology, not intelligence.

    “Never happen? It already did happen. Read up on 19th century America, modern day Hong Kong, Signapore, Houston, Texas, the State of New Hampshire and Anaheim, California.”

    19th century America was a corporate welfare state, just like the subsequent centuries. The 14th amendment which granted corporations personhood was enacted in the 19th century. Even the “founding fathers” supported government welfare for business. Slavery for example wasn’t exactly a laissez-faire position for the government to take.

    I’m not sure about Asia, but my guess is the same principles apply, as well as localities within the U.S.

    “I admit that such governments are few and far in between, but that is a huge difference from “NEVER”. If you read up on Chomsky, you will notice him pointing out various other examples of nations/states/groups that also had little to no coercion.”

    Groups sometimes. He of “Never trust the state” does not find a non-coercive state. The only non-coercive ones would be those in no need of coercion… say those implementing military domination on their populaces.

    “Anyone who tries to deceive me or other people is most certainly NOT my friend. Besides, I thought you had said before that the average american was “very smart”. If they are so smart, how come they are ‘duped’?”

    Everyone in the world is duped about many things. Regardless of the state of human intelligence reality itself is always far more complex… humans will never attain an accurate perception of the world. Humans only think they’re smart because they look around and can’t find anything smarter.

    Besides, being duped can be a lot smarter than not being duped. It’s not a lot of fun to take a position noone else in the world agrees with. A lot of people rather than be honest with themselves join the bandwagon. Why oppose the world with truth when you can join the world in falsity? Opposition is a lonely and perilous road. For most people it’s not about truth at all – it’s about what their brother believes, or what their friend believes, or it’s supporting their pastor, or their union, or their boss. What does truth matter when believing a lie gets you a raise, or gets you sex, or gets you friendship?

    We are told stories of the person “ahead of his time” who nobody believes until he is old, or dead. This is supposedly some kind of wisdom.

    What we aren’t told are stories of the many people who are shunted, pushed aside, and forgotten, who can never be seen as “ahead of their time” because there is no recording of their truths and no people to listen to any recordings that do exist. And for others humanity goes down some other path that never meets their truths. But what the state believes, what the power structures believe, are *always* remembered, regardless of their truth or falsity. It is precisely for this reason that power structures never care about truth – why should they? It is the powerless who need truth to grant themselves nobility and eternity – therefore it is only the powerless who ever *produce* truth.

    Examine the history of the world and you find that the powerful do indeed write the history books. And precisely for this reason history is not a lesson in truth, but merely a lesson in the ways in which the powerful serve themselves.

    Truth is Revolution. That is to say, if truth was ever raised to a point of worship in society the powerful would crumble to dust. The point of the powerful throughout history, from the beginning to the end, is to eliminate truth as a point of honor, and finally as a point of existence.

    This is ultimately the reason why Socialism will prevail – only in a socialist society where power is dispersed can truth receive the honor it has always deserved and never received.

    The only way to make the world powerful is to prevent any human or human institution from attaining too much power.

    Power is an *alternative* to truth in human history. Power is the only form of nihilism. Nietzsche’s “will to power” is a will to turn your back on truth, to accept the alternative. Thus the Revolution will bury Nietzsche.

  9. mad dog Says:

    “Groups sometimes. He of “Never trust the state” does not find a non-coercive state. The only non-coercive ones would be those in no need of coercion… say those implementing military domination on their populaces.”

    Military dominance to me is perhaps the ultimate form of coercion.

    “Besides, being duped can be a lot smarter than not being duped. It’s not a lot of fun to take a position noone else in the world agrees with. A lot of people rather than be honest with themselves join the bandwagon. Why oppose the world with truth when you can join the world in falsity? Opposition is a lonely and perilous road. For most people it’s not about truth at all – it’s about what their brother believes, or what their friend believes, or it’s supporting their pastor, or their union, or their boss. What does truth matter when believing a lie gets you a raise, or gets you sex, or gets you friendship?”

    And you want people like this to have power to make decisions over your life?

    “This is ultimately the reason why Socialism will prevail – only in a socialist society where power is dispersed can truth receive the honor it has always deserved and never received.”

    I have no problem with socialism, provided that I am allowed the choice of not participating in it should I not like that form. Sort of like how communes are run. You don’t see hippies or nuns chasing after other people down with guns to force them to participate.

    “Power is an *alternative* to truth in human history. Power is the only form of nihilism. Nietzsche’s “will to power” is a will to turn your back on truth, to accept the alternative. Thus the Revolution will bury Nietzsche.”

    I have never thought of power as nihilism. Rather, I tend to have thought of power more as an manifested extension of the fears of the powerful, ever-expanding to help the powerful deal with their fears that never seem to go away.

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